Forwarded along the Tales of the Longhouse portion at around 40 mins in to a bunch of people, who listened and were horrified. Should almost be its own podcast, I don't think a lot of people know how bad it's gotten.
You guys say you don't understand why right wing guys hate the ideology of Mad Men, then spend 10 minutes literally dissecting how evil and stupid the show makes alpha males look. That's why we don't like it. It presents masculinity as inherently toxic and Don Draper as a figure worthy of viewers' scorn and pity. This is why Draper has joined the ranks of Rorschach and American Psycho as unintentional aspirational figures.
I guess I don't understand, then, and apologies. You're saying you disagree with right wing guys who hate the ideology of Mad Men. How so? What are you seeing that I'm missing? Because when I watch it all I see is the framing of a bygone era through a modernist-feminist lens that finds everything wanting, where all the women are miserable, where the men are unrepentant misogynists. It doesn't strike me at all as a show that fairly presents both sides. It strikes me as a show that wants me to see masculine men as a problem.
Again, no snark here, I'm honestly curious, as one of the right wing guys who hates Mad Men that you single out: What am I missing? I'm happy to admit I just made a kneejerk reaction in error here, I haven't watched more than a few episodes. I saw it as feminist propaganda. What should I have been looking for?
I could definitely have done a better job clarifying, it's nobody's fault but my own if I miscommunicate.
For me, Mad Men is interesting because Don Draper was never really set up as the alpha from our perspective - because we know the truth - but he is treated like an alpha by everyone around him, especially his subordinates who try to emulate him. In a sense Don is the ultimate alpha because he is not driven by trying to be an alpha, he is driven by his ambition and desires and ultimately happiness the best way an orphan raised in a whorehouse can. It doesn't really judge him for that either, in fact that is kinda what the ending is about; he doesn't get judged as inferior.
The show doesn't really show men as inferior or the cause of any problems, it doesn't moralize like that. The most of that you would get is in Peggy Olson, but her transition mirrors Pete Campbell's as ambitious modern young people in the shadow of this construct named Don Draper, who each arrive where they want and it's nothing like they thought it was. So of course there is some critique of lifestyles or archetypes, but in the fashion of Sopranos more than something like "Don't Worry, Darling." Beneath the surface there does actually seem like an affection for the era and a genuine love of these characters. It's more that Don Draper is a man in search of his identity and what Lacan would call "objet petiet a," this existential lack he feels at all times and the angst that causes. But the show could have ended closer to the dissolution of the marriage with his wife instead of another like 2 or 3 seasons with his shitty next girlfriend whose name I forget. The show is not perfect at all, but I think it's deeper than most people give it credit for. I think if you stuck with it and got connected to these characters you might find yourself liking it more.
Forwarded along the Tales of the Longhouse portion at around 40 mins in to a bunch of people, who listened and were horrified. Should almost be its own podcast, I don't think a lot of people know how bad it's gotten.
It was a shrimple plan...buy nitrous in bulk, go to Vegas, find Jewel...make her love him.
You guys say you don't understand why right wing guys hate the ideology of Mad Men, then spend 10 minutes literally dissecting how evil and stupid the show makes alpha males look. That's why we don't like it. It presents masculinity as inherently toxic and Don Draper as a figure worthy of viewers' scorn and pity. This is why Draper has joined the ranks of Rorschach and American Psycho as unintentional aspirational figures.
I don't think I said I didn't understand it, especially if I went on to explain it at length.
I guess I don't understand, then, and apologies. You're saying you disagree with right wing guys who hate the ideology of Mad Men. How so? What are you seeing that I'm missing? Because when I watch it all I see is the framing of a bygone era through a modernist-feminist lens that finds everything wanting, where all the women are miserable, where the men are unrepentant misogynists. It doesn't strike me at all as a show that fairly presents both sides. It strikes me as a show that wants me to see masculine men as a problem.
Again, no snark here, I'm honestly curious, as one of the right wing guys who hates Mad Men that you single out: What am I missing? I'm happy to admit I just made a kneejerk reaction in error here, I haven't watched more than a few episodes. I saw it as feminist propaganda. What should I have been looking for?
I could definitely have done a better job clarifying, it's nobody's fault but my own if I miscommunicate.
For me, Mad Men is interesting because Don Draper was never really set up as the alpha from our perspective - because we know the truth - but he is treated like an alpha by everyone around him, especially his subordinates who try to emulate him. In a sense Don is the ultimate alpha because he is not driven by trying to be an alpha, he is driven by his ambition and desires and ultimately happiness the best way an orphan raised in a whorehouse can. It doesn't really judge him for that either, in fact that is kinda what the ending is about; he doesn't get judged as inferior.
The show doesn't really show men as inferior or the cause of any problems, it doesn't moralize like that. The most of that you would get is in Peggy Olson, but her transition mirrors Pete Campbell's as ambitious modern young people in the shadow of this construct named Don Draper, who each arrive where they want and it's nothing like they thought it was. So of course there is some critique of lifestyles or archetypes, but in the fashion of Sopranos more than something like "Don't Worry, Darling." Beneath the surface there does actually seem like an affection for the era and a genuine love of these characters. It's more that Don Draper is a man in search of his identity and what Lacan would call "objet petiet a," this existential lack he feels at all times and the angst that causes. But the show could have ended closer to the dissolution of the marriage with his wife instead of another like 2 or 3 seasons with his shitty next girlfriend whose name I forget. The show is not perfect at all, but I think it's deeper than most people give it credit for. I think if you stuck with it and got connected to these characters you might find yourself liking it more.